In support of today’s article in the Salt Lake Tribune entitled, “Mormons tackling tough questions in their history,” we are releasing some initial results from our recent survey on LDS disbelief.
You can access the preliminary survey results here.
Please check back in the coming weeks and months for more information and programming on why some Mormons lose their faith in the LDS church — and what we can do to help.
Finally, to learn more about why people leave the LDS church, check out this one hour video.
First!
This project is going to be a huge help in working towards change. Thanks!
I left the church because I found out more and more about the background of the church beginnings (ie about the truth about the outcoming of the book of mormon), and about the way, the church finances itself through the money of Illus, about their handling of callings and manipulations through the temple rituals and so on and on. I could write down 90 items why the lds church is not true.
I can tell you right now what people can do to help. Quit demonizing us and let us live our lives according to our consicence.
I left the church and I would be happy to leave it alone. Then the church came after my marriage. If the church wants to be a player in public politics, then scrutiny is fair game.
That is fair, Brian. Hope the Church can leave your marriage alone poste haste. Marriage is hard enough without outside meddling forces.
Brian, how did the Church come after your marriage?
How DID the church “come after” your marriage? What does that mean? Did the Bishop call you in and say you couldn’t be married? Did you wife tell you that SHE didn’t want to be married because you left the church? How exactly does an organization “come after” a private relationship?
If you’re really interested in “why”, there are MANY stories available at RFM. Google for it under “stories”.
Sally,
My ex-husband’s bishop was 100% behind him divorcing me. As was his LDS family and friends. We were married for 19 yrs and had 10 children. I left the LDS church in Nov. of 2007. He ( my ex) could not accept the change, so he filed for divorce in March of 2011. It happens all the time, sadly. I know of many other cases like mine. The church does “get in the way” of relationships.
For ten years bishops told me that I could not get divorced, They agreed my marriage had big problems but said they could not counsel anyone to get divorced due to church policy. I think bishops should be barred from giving marriage advice because they dont know what they’re doing, BUT since they do give advice Church policy should not restrain them in the advice they are permittted to give. So much for being let by the sprit.
That’s the kind of question asked by someone who believes there can be no right answer.
If you really wanted to know what your brothers and sisters were going through, and actually cared about them and listened to their stories, maybe they wouldn’t be leaving in such huge numbers.
I am “us” as well: a concerned LDS who is seeing friends and family leave in droves. This report is for “us” who care. My conscience tells me we ought to listen.
Then quit trying to force your puritanical morals on non-members.
For example: Gay marriage in California.
Example 2: Baptisms for the dead
/straight ex-mo in California.
I’m excited to see what comes next here. Thanks for all your hard work Open Stories Foundation.
Great resource! Thank you so much for making this public!
Interesting. Thanks John. Identification with a form is the problem. When any organization identifies it self as God’s only true organization, and then people identify themselves as part of that organization then conflict is the necessary outcome. There is no virtue in the identification, but in the behavior and then only if done for virtuous reasons. We see the same thing in politics, “I am a Democrat/Republican” and in nationalism, “I am an American”, and in religion, “I am a Mormon” or “I am am athiest”. These labels have little meaning and are harmful if one fully identifies with them. Anything of value can not be lost. Identification is not one of those things. To have any use at all these indentificaitons need to be operationally defined, and in the case of religion and politics that is tough to do.
Great work! Really interesting results- can’t wait to read the rest!
I’m saddened to see that social issues, rather than doctrinal, appear to be the major factors for leaving the church. Events like the Mountain Meadows Massacre, regardless of its truth, shouldn’t have much bearing on the doctrinal beliefs of modern Mormons. Every religion has a shameful past. Still, interesting results so far. I’m excitedto see what else is revealed.
Social issues? All the top historical reasons (the sub-category) were about doctrine or related to foundational claims. Social reasons look like agitators (as moderate to strong reasons), but they aren’t the primary reasons.
Mountain Meadows in particular scored down the bottom of the list of primary reasons at 9%, even though 72% found it very troubling.
I didn’t learn about Mountain Meadows until after leaving Mormonism (resigning).
I do think that for some LDS, MMM was an “ah-ha” moment–like, “Wow! If THAT happened what ELSE didn’t I know about my church?”–and the house of cards begins it’s collapse…
I’m actually more surprised that doctrinal/historical issues are at the top whereas women’s issues and things like Prop 8 aren’t. Those are huge for me. How is it that equality NOW is so low compared to stuff that happened back in the day? I wonder if the study was skewed because John Dehlin’s community is very historicity-centered. In the communities I roll, equality is the number 1 issue.
That’s a really good point, TopHat.
Great work.
I feel like the questions and format weren’t able to draw out the expiring patience of women in the church. We live with such inequality, and then something else finally tips the scales for us (gay issues, history, JS’s polygamy). We live with the depressing inequality from day one, so although it may not trigger a faith crisis, I believe the continual aggravation/dismissal sets the stage to eventually change course. I believe this is the case for many in the feminist crowd, who left the church in droves when Prop 8 became their tipping point.
I absolutely agree!
Great report, thanks John, Brian.
FYI: JANUARY is misspelled on the bottom of the first page.
I have Been SOOOOOOOO looking forward to the publication of this information since finding out about it. My reasons are both professional (therapist dealing at times with LDS faith crises) and personal for my own struggles with all the stuff I have on my laden shelf. I would say, however, that due to the sampling logistics (through folks on or related to folks in the Mormon Stories community) that the data is likely more skewed toward people who left for intellectual rather than social reasons. That being what it is, however, I am thrilled to have this bit of data to begin my conversations about people leaving the church with those who are probably apologists.
There are two reasons that I left:
Willima Schryver’s misogyny; and
Daniel Peterson’s combative online persona.
Hey John–you are doing great work!
I recently had an e-mail exchange with a very very high up leader in the LDS Church. While they are using PR firms and questionnaires etc, he adamantly refused to listen to my (our) concerns in any way which gave me any hope that anything would actually *happen* because of these concerns.
The attitude was simply, “If they want to leave the only true Church and be damned, so be it!”
I find that a bit arrogant. As one who loves all of Heavenly Father’s children, I want to make the space bigger…I want anyone who desires to have a space to grow through the concepts of Mormonism, inasmuch as it is possible for them. Why let everyone leave? We could do so much good!
Anyway, I made a group on FB to cover these issues… https://www.facebook.com/groups/100194950110280/
Everyone is welcome here!
Lots of love and greatest blessings,
Ryan
What concerns did you give that he wouldn’t listen to? The Church isn’t just collecting data and not doing anything about it.
One of the questions asked n the survey is, “How do you classify your religious beliefs now?” I did not see that breakdown in the “CAUSES AND COSTS OF MORMON FAITH CRISIS” pdf. Are you going to release that information?
Hi Keith, great question – we have a lot more analysis forthcoming, including the paths of disaffiliation.
I didn’t leave the Church because of its sordid history or anything I read about it. I left because of the reality I was living in as a member. I was tired of the fear. Fear that I needed to change myself so that my bipolar abusive husband and I could live together forever with our four children. Fear that workout Mormonism I would be without my family when I died. Fear of what all my friends (cause I had Mormon only friends) would treat me like a leper if I disagreed with the Mormon beliefs we were all taught. I overcame all theseyears fears though and I am now married to a man who not only treats me as an equal, but believes that he has married up. My children our thriving-not because of being taught Mormon beliefs, but because they have now been shown what belief each other really means. I am thankful everyday that I do not need to worry about fear and that I can now live my life in peace and with hope!
Beautiful! So happy for you!
[...] what’s interesting for this week is that John and Mormon Stories just coincidentally happened to release the preliminary results for the Why …y (prettified PDF [...]
MY 1 REASON – authoritarian cult http://www.rickross.com/warningsigns.html
MY 2 REASON – lie and deception
ZINA HUNTINGTON JACOBS
In 1839, the Huntington family arrived in Nauvoo, along with daughter, Zina. Within months, Zina’s Mother died from the malaria epidemic which claimed the lives of many of the early Nauvoo settlers. About this same time, Zina met and was courted by Henry B. Jacobs, a handsome and talented musician. Sometime during Henry’s courtship of Zina, Joseph Smith explained to Zina the “principle of plural marriage” and asked her to become one of his wives. Zina remembers the conflict she felt about Joseph’s proposal, and her budding relationship with Henry: “O dear Heaven, grant me wisdom! Help me to know the way. O Lord, my god, let thy will be done and with thine arm around about to guide, shield and direct…” Zina declined Joseph’s proposal and chose to marry Henry. They were married on March 7, 1841.
Zina later wrote, that within months of her marriage to Henry, “[Joseph] sent word to me by my brother, saying, ‘Tell Zina, I put it off and put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth I would lose my position and my life’”. Joseph further explained that, “the Lord had made it known to him she was to be his celestial wife.”
Zina chose to obey this commandment and married Joseph on October 27. She later recalled, “When I heard that God had revealed the law of celestial marriag…I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church…I made a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated again to be looked upon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved…”. Zina continued, “It was something too sacred to be talked about; it was more to me than life or death. I never breathed it for years”.
Zina’s first husband, Henry, was aware of this wedding and they continued to live in the same home. He believed that “whatever the Prophet did was right, without making the wisdom of God’s authorities bend to the reasoning of any man.” Over the next few years, Henry was sent on several missions to Chicago, Western New York and Tennessee. Henry missed his family and wrote home often. One of Henry’s missionary companions, John D. Lee, said, “Jacobs was bragging about his wife and two children, what a true, virtuous, lovely woman she was. He almost worshiped her…”.
Shortly after Joseph Smith’s death in 1844, Zina married Brigham Young. In May of 1846, Henry was sent on a mission to England. In Henry’s absence, Zina began to live openly as Brigham’s wife and remained so throughout her life in Utah. Henry seemed to struggle with this arrangement and later wrote to Zina, “…the same affection is there…But I feel alone…I do not Blame Eny person…may the Lord our Father bless Brother Brigham…all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our God Joseph.”
[References]
Another sadness about Zina is that the reason she married Brigham Young was because she had been a plural wife of Joseph Smith. After Joseph Smith’s death Brigham Young and Heber Kimball were sealed for Time, not eternity, to all of Josephs plural wives that would allow it in the Nauvoo temple. They said it was a way of showing God that Josephs wives were going to be taken care of on earth. She had no desire to marry Brigham Young. Zina’s husband Henry was okay with the arrangement with Joseph, and then Brigham, until Brigham took advantage of Henry. He sent Henry away on a mission and then took Zina as a bedmate. Henry loved her dearly and had to watch from a far as his wife mothered children to Brigham Young, who later excommunicated Henry for not approving of the relationship.
[...] are all here at W&T.) Maybe we could talk about the fact that these news articles coincide with Open Stories Foundation’s preliminary release of survey results on why Mormons leave the churc…? (Ah, our very own Jake has already covered this [...]
For an organization that supposedly values transparency and openess about “facts” and true history and science, I find it interesting that my comment on your survey didn’t pass moderation. I have several concerns about this non-scientific survey. Shouldn’t this be a place to discuss them? Or is this forum merely an echo chamber? The survey failed to disqualify alternative theories as to why people leave.
If you have two members who have never heard certain bits of history and they learn something unsavory, and one leaves and one doesn’t, why is that so? Why are some people able to better weather that storm? Are you claiming that every one who studies deeply into Mormonism is going to end up disaffected, a hollow shell of their prior self? What is your basis for claiming that? The survey didn’t ask about prior study habits. It didn’t ask about prior spiritual experiences. It didn’t ask about the amount of marital/familial discord prior to disaffection. It didn’t ask about prior sexual or physical abuse. It didn’t ask about close homosexual relatives (defined as parent, child, brother, sister, spouse) that the disaffected had. I see those types of things listed in exit narratives. Why no mention here? What impact does that have on attitude towards God and religion?
What is the definition of a high cost negative impact on a relationship? What is a mental cost? What is a spiritual cost? How do you differentiate in the survey between high cost and lower cost? Are we talking major depression and anxiety as a high cost? Are we talking severe marital/familial discord? How and why did you arrive at your definitions?
These and other questions remain unanswered and as such, the whole survey tells us nothing, means nothing and acts as mere confirmation bias. It’s especially telling with statement likes this in your methodology:
“This survey is representative of the respondents only, although we feel that many points of this analysis are indicative of the experiences of many people in the Church who pass through a crisis of faith.”
By putting your conclusion as part of your methodological analysis, you have sabotaged your data.
dpc – We’re working on a v2 of the survey. Wanna help us make it better?
Let me start with a caveat – I don’t think your conclusions are necessarily wrong, I just think the survey may say a lot less than you would have hoped it would.
I am also willing to give feedback on v2 of the survey, whether it be looking at potential survey questions/responses or the structure of the whole survey. Please just email me if you would like my input. One minor suggestion would be to split the survey in two. One about the causes of disaffection and another about the cost of disaffection. Obviously they are related, but I think that the amount of information you need for both is too much for one survey.
Would love your input, dpc.
I have a personal experience to share. There is a lot of controversy in the blogosphere and in other online discussions relating to whether this is a real phenomenon, and whether this is something new. Based on my personal experience I beleive it is. I live and work in Salt Lake City, and there are 15 men I work with who have all left the church in the last 3 years. I am among them.
All of us have served missions and been married in the temple. Most of us are in our 40s, and few in their 50s. Some spouses have stayed, some have not. Not a single one of us left because of some offense by another member or becasue we didnt feel included. But on the other hand, only three that I am aware of left for dctrinal issues. Generally speaking, I think the primary reason most of the people I know left was boredom. Not marriage problems, not a desire to sin.
Speaking for myself, I first began to question church leadership during the Prop 8 fiasco. But the main problem I have is that the highly-correlated version of the talks and lessons I’ve heard over the last 10 years became so monotonous that I simply lost interest. I havent been energized or enlightened at church in years, so what’s the point of going? My family suspects but doesnt know, why woudl I want to “come out” to them and cause all that drama? I do still attend perhaps once a month to keep up with friends. I dont pay tithing and do not want a church recommend.
I dont need to be entertained, I want to be edified. I want to be taught and fed. I get more out of a hike or ski day with my family than at church. Sending people to my house to reactivate me isnt going to fix that problem. The church needs to really deal with this or I am absolutely convinced that the exodus will continue. .
[...] related news came out at nearly the same moment: John Dehlin released the results of his survey on why people leave the church — indicating that discovering hidden, less-faith-promoting [...]
John,
What a great project! I’m excited to see it unfold.
I’d like to send this on to my bishop, I think the beginning data is helpful, but the part about “high cost” for staying in the church didn’t seem to come with an explanation. What was the question that was asked? How many people answered, etc?
Also, I’d love to see contact info on that document, so people can direct questions to the authors. (Or perhaps that’s what this thread is for).
Overall, way to go! I’m excited to see you at the Phx conference in a few weeks.
Jess,
Thanks for commenting. I’ve updated the PDF to include a contact email address.
Your bishop can contact us at: whymormonsleave@gmail.com
Feel free to email us there with any questions.
Excited to see you next week as well!!!!
John
My bishop could not open the PDF, I know why know.
My bishop rocks.
He is a dork but when he stands as a bishop he is not the same anymore, he changes in the way he stands and I can tell he is telling the best he can what the spirit is telling him to say. Not an easy task. I wish more people could have heard the way he gently rebuked this attitude of “holyer than thou” that we see in the church about two weeks ago.
Anyway I will download the PDF and send it to him because he asked me for it.
If members want to know why people leave, they should just ask them. It is rare anyone even asks (or even remains your friend if you do leave, for that matter). I suppose LDS members just automatically assume it is because the former member was offended or didn’t want to live the gospel or wished to sin. If you REALLY want to know, then ask them. ASK
I’m pretty sure that’s the point of the survey, as well as to maybe get people to start talking about this in their wards.
[...] the country just as the news articles about the current wave of members leaving the church, and the Why Mormons Leave survey results were made public, so I’m a bit late to the party. However, I think that it is important to learn [...]